Rig Manager bug

If Rigs and Performances are loaded into the PROFILER, so that you can play these while editing, explicit storing is required. If you just "change the sound" and don't save, the changes don't strick.

Check what and where you are saving.

While the PROFILER is in Performance Mode you can only "Save" Performances. While the PROFILER is in Browser Mode you can only "Save" Rigs.

Check, if you are saving to the Local Library or your PROFILER. Perhaps you are searching for the new Rig in the wrong place.

Verifiy that the count in that location increases by one if you "Save" a Rig.

Check if the saved Rig is added to the end of the list in that location.

Make sur, you are not checking with a limited View like "Just Bass" while savong Rigs for instrument guitar.

Rig Manager 3.2 Release (3.2.65) for macOS

In performance mode:

if you make some changes in RM to a rig (e.g. slot 1) but you don't save it back to the slot.

Instead, if you switch to another Performance with the RM, RM will prompt you to save or discard your changes.

If you discard your changes, you will no longer be able to save any changes in the KPA from that moment on.

Please try

A colleague and I have tested the scenario you describe independently with 3.2.65 and OS 8.6.6 and are not able to reproduce any issue:

If you change a tag of Performance n currently loaded (headphone icon) in the Inspector the Performance becomes red. If you then load another Performance m via double click before storing Performance n, the warning window appears. If you select "discard", Performance n is left unchanged and Performance m gets loaded (headphone icon). If you now edit anything in Performance m it becomes red and you have the choice to Store in Local Libary AND Store Performance in #m. Everything as should.

Quote from Burkhard

A colleague and I have tested the scenario you describe independently with 3.2.65 and OS 8.6.6 and are not able to reproduce any issue:

If you change a tag of Performance n currently loaded (headphone icon) in the Inspector the Performance becomes red. If you then load another Performance m via double click before storing Performance n, the warning window appears. If you select "discard", Performance n is left unchanged and Performance m gets loaded (headphone icon). If you now edit anything in Performance m it becomes red and you have the choice to Store in Local Libary AND Store Performance in #m. Everything as should.

Thx Burkard,
I will create a VIDEO this evening.

@Burkhard

Hi Yoda, you don’t have the New Performance selected for editing. I had similar issues a while ago. When I complained about it and send videos etc I was told that you need to DOUBLE CLICK the new performance so that it turns RED. I have been doing this ever since and have rarely had any problems since. Hope that works for you ?

Quote from Wheresthedug

Hi Yoda, you don’t have the New Performance selected for editing. I had similar issues a while ago. When I complained about it and send videos etc I was told that you need to DOUBLE CLICK the new performance so that it turns RED. I have been doing this ever since and have rarely had any problems since. Hope that works for you ?

I tried to double click but no response.

Besides, I didn't want to edit at all, just put together a performance by drag and drop.

Use the basic functionality, put together a performance from the browser pool.

What's also notable is the fact that if I just check the performance but don't select it (just highlight it but no headphone icon), slots are instantly saved via drag and drop. If the performance is selected (with headphone icon) I have to save it explicitly.
But it doesn't really matter now, I've given up dealing with obvious errors that every developer and software tester should notice after just a few minutes of playing around. It's been like this for years now. More and more gimmicks but the basic problems are apparently simply ignored at Kemper. So I'm planning a product change at the next opportunity.

Yoda Guitar There are two different modes of operation:

1. The lower editor part of the window including the store buttons always refer to the Performance currently loaded. It is the one that you see on the display of your PROFILER and is marked with the headphones in the Rig Manager Performance list. This mode and editor window is only available while a PROFILER is connected. And it follows the logic of the PROFILER: edits don't get immediately stored, but explicit storing is required. If you leave without storing the edits get lost.

2. You can select an object e.g. a Performance via single click (not loaded in PROFILER and no headphones in the list). This works regardless of a PROFILER being connected or not. In this mode you can place Rigs in the Slots of a Performance and change tags. And these edits get immediately stored.

I see in your video, that while you have loaded a Performance "Disco Funk" in mode 1, you are then selecting the following New Performance via single click and editing this. These edits stick, when you later chaneg back to Disco Funk and return to New Performance until you Initialze the NEw Performance around 1:08. This is all intended behavior.

I don't understand what then follows. It's not clear, what you are trying to achieve and I cannot see nor hear, when you perform single clicks and when double clicks. If double clicks should not load another Performance, my question would be, is the PROFILER still functional or is it hanging?

Burkhard

1st Video (Kemper2022 12 17 001) shows Mode 1
- ts 0:44 to 1:06 drag rigs from browser pool to performance 7 (aktivated ) slot 1 to 3, works.
- ts 1:08 to 1:12 double klick Performance 6 (Disco Funk) and discard changes

- ts 1:15 Performance 6 is activated
- ts 1:19 double click Performance 7 is activate

- ts 1:21 repeating drag Rigs from Browser Pool to Performance 7

- ts 1:24 first Rig takes place on slot1 Performance 7

- ts 1:26 try to drag a second rig to performance 7 slot 2 fails

- ts 1:35 try to double-click on slot 1 for edit name ... nothing happened

- ts 1:40 try to select slot 2 try to drag a rig from browser pool .. nothing happened

- ts 1:47 double click on performance 6 cant't select performance 6

- ts 1:53 hitting keyboard return

- ts 2:04 KPA gets frozen no reaction on front panel buttons or remote slot selection.

2nd Video (Kemper2022 12 17 002) Mode 2

-ts 0:10 single click performance 7 (not activated) (activated is performance 6 slot 1)

-ts 0:20 to 0:42 drag rigs from browser pool to performance 7 slot 1,2,3

-ts 0:46 single click on performance 6 (no double click because performance 6 is still selected/ activated)

-ts 0:53 single click on performance 7 (no double click) performance is stored in KPA without any store action.

-ts 0:55 double click on performance 7 performance is activated and yes performance is really stored in KPA.

-ts 1:00 double click performance 6

-ts 1:06 double click performance 7 and right klick "initialize performance" 7

-ts 1:14 double click performance 6

-ts 1:19 double click performance 7 .. yes performance 7 is now empty

-ts 1:20 to 1:45 drag rig from browser pool to performance 7 is not working.

-ts 1:52 double click performance 6 not working

-ts 1:58 double click performance 8 not working

In both videos look also to the store buttons in the lower right corner.

in video 1 "Store Performance in #7 is visible until ts 1:10 after discarding

the performance at ts 1:10 the performance store button is disabled.

in video 2 ist says "Store performance in #6" greyed out

but the slots on the right side indicates that im on performance 7 (ts 0:20 to 1:20).

from 1:26 on there is no store button visible.

Thanks!

I think, I can reliably reproduce the scenario shown in video 1, but not the one shown in video 2. I don't know, what that triggers.

In any case I have the impression changing the Performance at the PROFIELR front panel cleans up the situation.

Quote from Burkhard

Thanks!

I think, I can reliably reproduce the scenario shown in video 1, but not the one shown in video 2. I don't know, what that triggers.

In any case I have the impression changing the Performance at the PROFIELR front panel cleans up the situation.

In Video 1 the event is the "discard",
In Video 2 the event is the "initialize performance"

Both are clearing / reseting the internal modification flags and performance/slot buffers.
From that point in time something went wrong.

While the "discard" seems to be a trigger, the "initialize" is not. It seems to be more complicated, but probably related. Our engineering will investigate.

Thanks again for the detailed analysis!

The countless times that I have overwritten a rig in a performance while not intented got me frustrated so many times ... never figured out what caused it ... I probably need to read this post a few times in order to get it once and for all ...

I'd rather have a popup message asking to overwite something or discard ... that goes for rigs and performances

So a message to store changes into the profiler or not to store ...

Raf

Quote from Roeffel

The countless times that I have overwritten a rig in a performance while not intented got me frustrated so many times ... never figured out what caused it ... I probably need to read this post a few times in order to get it once and for all ...

I'd rather have a popup message asking to overwite something or discard ... that goes for rigs and performances

So a message to store changes into the profiler or not to store ...

Raf

Display More

One of the most common issue is, that if you select/activate (headphone symbol) a performance also a slot is loaded into the edit buffer. If you now select a rig from the browser pool or from a other performance , this will be loaded into the edit buffer.
If you know press the "Store performance in # ... " the current edit buffer will override your performance.

I don't like the concept , with double click and single click,

selecting and activating and edit buffer,

all that give you too much confusing opportunities to do things wrong.

Use the KISS (keep it silly and simple) concept.

IMHO it would be better to have the editor in a full window and this is blocking the rest of the application,
so double click opens edit window, closing editor, stores or discard editing.
Edit will be always saved back to the place (pool / performance) where it was loaded from.

Performance Mode:

Copy your Rig's into your performance / slots.

Double click you performance/slot will open the editor window, edit and save back.

(no save to what ever browser pool needed, you can alway copy back a rig to the browser pool after edit.)

Browse mode:

Double click a Rig will open the editor window, edit and "save/save as" back.

The current editor section should be used only to show the rig paramters as information and overview.

edited CAPS LOCK title

There are two modes of operation, because on one hand we need to avoid, that edits you perform at the Rig/Performance currently loaded get immediately stored permanently. The PROFILER works with an edit buffer since day 1 and nobody has ever questioned that. For everything currently loaded in the edit buffer of the PROFILER the rule is applied: explicit storing required. However, there are other transactions in Rig Manager, which don't require an edit buffer and not even a PROFILER e.g. selecting a bunch of Rigs and changing the tag Amp Manufacturer or declaring these as your favorites or moving these in one go.

You can compare this with your PC: If you open a Word document and edit it, you normally need to store your edits and have the choice between overwriting, or store under another name or discard. You work with an edit buffer. This is how the PROFILER and the corresponding lower editor part operate. On the other hand you have a file manager, where you can rename or change attributes of or move a bunch of files in one go. These changes take immediate effect. This is how the upper Rig Manager part operates.

Yes Burkhard

but from day 1 you edited the rigs on the profiler in the device itself, there was no editor in RM.

So you couldn't change anything in the background on the profiler when editing the rig.

To compare this to your PC example, it's like opening a document for editing and as you edit it the file manager changes the current folder or copies and overwrites another document (with the same name) to this one Location.

In Windows / OSX or any other operating system, the file will be blocked when you open it for editing to prevent exactly this conflict.

In RM there is no look, the last write happens and overwrites.