Why do some profiles feel way more dynamic and touch-responsive than others?

    In the constant process of narrowing down the profiles I own to just the very best, I find to often comes down to feel. e.g. I may have several profiles of the same amp at similar gain ranges, all which SOUND good tonally, but there's usually one I'll come back to more due to how nice it FEELS to play.


    I guess this is mainly due to a wide range of dynamics, where you can change the sound just by pick strength. The Kemper is definitely capable of feeling almost exactly like a real tube amp. And some profiles have this, and feel totally natural, very inspiring to play. However some, even thought the tone/sound itself may be good, just feel horribly "flat" and "brittle" to play - limited dynamics, whether you pick soft or hard it results in much the same sound. btw when comparing dynamic feel/touch responsiveness of profiles I have been careful to make sure there are no compressor or noisegate setting that could be responsible - it's definitely something in the raw profiles themselves.


    Question is, is there something in the profiling process that determines the range of dynamics?


    And are there people who maybe find a limited dynamic range preferable? Because I've notice even some of the most popular profiles can feel very flat.

    I am very curious about this topic. How much gain is in the profiles that "feel" dynamic?


    I have made 100s of profiles just messing around and seem to recall when the Kemper sees enough gain to call the amp distorted/dirty the profile has less dynamics. Another idea is people are using a noise gate when profiling.


    For some reason my Stage always sounds compressed to me exactly how you describe. I have talked to support and they say it is fine. So I bought a Helix LT and currently use the Helix for effects and IRs. Kemper amp sim is better than the Helix but the Helix IRs/Cabs do not seem to choke out the dynamics as much as the Kemper. Would be curious if even a Strymon or HX Stomp would be a good choice as a Kemper add on. Once I realized this compressed feeling I rewatched some YouTube videos and noticed that the Kemper vids sound compressed to me as well. Something I did not notice when first looking at the Kemper. It is very subtle. The tone is amazing and stands out compared to the other options though.


    I run the Kemper mostly with the Noise Gate and Amp turned on only. In the Helix I have multiple paths setup where I have two IRs merged mono into a stereo path using different reverbs.


    You can use a Cab, IR, or both in either path. You can add EQs, compressors, etc. in each and really dial in the sound you want. In this example my Main IR is alone. Then I am simulating the "room" sound with some EQ, a chorus, and a reverb.


    Quote from RosboneMako

    I am very curious about this topic. How much gain is in the profiles that "feel" dynamic?

    I would say it's most noticeable on mid-gain profiles (say between around 4-7 on the gain knob) - with cleaner profiles it's harder to hear, but the difference I mention is definitely still there from profile to profile - with VERY high gain profiles, these of course get inherently very compressed with all the distortion - but again, I can still feel the difference between ones with a realistic dynamic range, and ones with less.

    Quote from cmbrowns

    You can try the Power Sag. I set it to around 4-5 on most rigs for exactly this purpose. Works great for me.

    Yes, I always dial in a bit of power sag, but I'm not really asking for ways to make less dynamic profiles more dynamic - I'm just curious as to why some are so much less dynamic to start with. Trust me, in terms of tweaking, I've tried every trick in the book by now - conclusion (and you find this said many times elsewhere also) is: if a profile isn't around 90% there to begin with, you're never going to get it sounding as good as one that is no matter how much EQ or parameter-tweaking you throw at it!

    Could be that profiles you're trying out weren't created with much refining. If you read the section in the User Guide on "Refining the Profile" (page 329 of the current version) it describes this. But then it also describes using the Sag and Compression as we've suggested to add more dynamics where you feel the need for improvement.


    I agree that with many here that with so many profiles available, you could probably find some closer to what you expect. But to avoid really simple edits or changes just because there is a large library to choose from is kind of like getting a new tube amp, then not using it because you don't want to tweak treble and bass. Nothing special about a raw profile, and that raw profile is really only meaningful to whoever created it and what they were after.

    The amp being profiled obviously makes a massive difference. Most amps have a relatively narrow “sweet spot” where they just come alive. As the profile is a snapshot of the full signal chain settings profiles at different amp settings or speaker/mic combinations will capture the changes in dynamics from the original amp. Some just wont feel as good as others. That’s what happens with real amps too.


    Tweaking - things like sag and compression obviously affect the feel. I know that you don’t want to tweak these but want to understand the root cause. However, many of the profiles have already been tweaked during the profiling session. If the profiler felt it was nearly there but just needed a little more sponginess they may have dialed in some sag and/or compression before saving.

    Quote from cmbrowns

    But to avoid really simple edits or changes just because there is a large library to choose from is kind of like getting a new tube amp, then not using it because you don't want to tweak treble and bass. Nothing special about a raw profile, and that raw profile is really only meaningful to whoever created it and what they were after.

    I've stated several times above that I do tweak these parameters... in fact there's rarely any parameter I don't adjust to some extent once I've found a profile I think I'll be using a lot. I find that every control on the Kemper is very useful and can potentially help turn a good profile into a great one. I mention comparing raw profiles because that's what the question is about - why some profiles have so much better feel/dynamics than others - it's a question about the profiling process really. I mentioned raw profiles to try and avoid all the suggestions re. sag & compression etc... point being simply that these parameters are not a factor in what I'm talking about.


    Quote from Wheresthedug

    The amp being profiled obviously makes a massive difference. Most amps have a relatively narrow “sweet spot” where they just come alive. As the profile is a snapshot of the full signal chain settings profiles at different amp settings or speaker/mic combinations will capture the changes in dynamics from the original amp. Some just wont feel as good as others. That’s what happens with real amps too.


    Tweaking - things like sag and compression obviously affect the feel. I know that you don’t want to tweak these but want to understand the root cause. However, many of the profiles have already been tweaked during the profiling session. If the profiler felt it was nearly there but just needed a little more sponginess they may have dialed in some sag and/or compression before saving.

    Just to clarify, it's not that I don't want to tweak these parameters at some point - once I've found a good profile, I'll usually end up tweaking almost every parameter available to some extent! I'm simply ruling these out as a factor for the differences in feel by comparing the raw profiles. Also, I am comparing profiles of same amps at similar gain ranges, otherwise, yes, of course there would be "natural" differences from amp to amp. However you mention something interesting - that some sag or compression could be added during the profiling process before saving - this I didn't realise could be done. But just to clarify, are you saying that if this was dialled in on the Kemper during the profiling process, then the raw profile would contain this even with all the parameters set at default/zero? Or you just mean they save it with e.g. sag set at 1.2 - and that you'd see these values displayed when you load it up?

    A compressor or distortion Stomp in front of the amp may even out any picking dynamics.


    The Tube Bias control can let the 'tubes' distort earlier, thereby making differences in picking less apparent.


    The term dynamics is often used incorrectly by guitar players, they like to control the amount of distortion with their right hand (or volume pot) without having the volume drop too much - the Compression parameter in the AMPLIFIER module can do just that.
    Essentially, it makes the rig less dynamic (volume differences are evened out), but it might feel more dynamic.

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    The amp being profiled obviously makes a massive difference. Most amps have a relatively narrow “sweet spot” where they just come alive. As the profile is a snapshot of the full signal chain settings profiles at different amp settings or speaker/mic combinations will capture the changes in dynamics from the original amp. Some just wont feel as good as others. That’s what happens with real amps too.


    Tweaking - things like sag and compression obviously affect the feel. I know that you don’t want to tweak these but want to understand the root cause. However, many of the profiles have already been tweaked during the profiling session. If the profiler felt it was nearly there but just needed a little more sponginess they may have dialed in some sag and/or compression before saving.

    This is where my thoughts went on this. I am wondering at what volume the amp was at and how high the gain was on the Kemper when it was profiled. I could see a possible difference in the feel on how much signal the Kemper was receiving during the profiling process. There can definitely be a difference on whether the amp was really in it's sweet spot when profiled.

    Quote from alligatorlizard

    However you mention something interesting - that some sag or compression could be added during the profiling process before saving - this I didn't realise could be done. But just to clarify, are you saying that if this was dialled in on the Kemper during the profiling process, then the raw profile would contain this even with all the parameters set at default/zero? Or you just mean they save it with e.g. sag set at 1.2 - and that you'd see these values displayed when you load it up?

    Just double checked. The actual adjusted values would show e.g. if the profile returned compression 0.0 but the author changed it 3.4 and saved the value would show as 3.4

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    Just double checked. The actual adjusted values would show e.g. if the profile returned compression 0.0 but the author changed it 3.4 and saved the value would show as 3.4

    OK, thanks for checking/clarifying - as you can probably guess, I've never tried profiling, so not sure exactly what the process is (& hence why I'm curious about this topic!)

    Sounds like that's not it then, and anyway, as I'm unable to reproduce the feel of a really dynamic profile by dialling in more sag/comp on a flat-feeling one, makes sense it's something else. Probably is, as you suggest, more to do with finding the amp's sweet spot where Kemper's profiling signal (or whatever you'd call it) can detect the full dynamic range of the amp. But who knows - I find when buying profiles, with some companies everything I've tried from them all feels very flat - whereas other companies (and with same/similar amps) I can generally find nice dynamic ones - so is it really just that some aren't finding the amps sweet spot, or something else they're doing differently? Maybe it's not that anyone's doing anything "wrong" as such, but some people add some extra magic somehow to bring out the full dynamics, something in the signal chain maybe? In which case they're probably not going to share their secrets And it's the same with rig exchange btw, scroll thru a bunch all of the same amp, differences in tone aside, they'll all feel very different under fingers also. I guess the Kemper "measures" various things when profiling: captures the tone, but also the dynamics according to different volumes of the signal fed thru it etc - so that it's possible to capture a good tone, but not necessarily a good feel - or vice-versa!

    Oh well, no problem really - I've got an abundance of profiles now that feel and sound amazing - but was just curious about the factors that go into capturing this realistic feel. Will have to try my hand at profiling one day, maybe it'll all make more sense then, though currently have no tube amps to try it on!

    Quote from alligatorlizard

    so that it's possible to capture a good tone, but not necessarily a good feel - or vice-versa!

    remember that everything about guitar playing is subjective. One person’s idea of good tone is another’s idea of total garbage. The same could be said for “feel” some people like spongey while others like really “stiff” and aggressive. Some like the notes to “bloom” while others crave a super fast attack. Maybe it really is just that different profilers are happy with the results they get rather than the Kemper can’t do X,Y or Z. Or maybe I’m talking nonsense 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    remember that everything about guitar playing is subjective. One person’s idea of good tone is another’s idea of total garbage. The same could be said for “feel” some people like spongey while others like really “stiff” and aggressive. Some like the notes to “bloom” while others crave a super fast attack. Maybe it really is just that different profilers are happy with the results they get rather than the Kemper can’t do X,Y or Z. Or maybe I’m talking nonsense 🤷🏻‍♂️

    No, you're probably right - there are plenty of profiles out there where I try them and think "who wants that tone?" - but clearly some people do! - so similarly I suppose some people prefer a more compressed stiffer feel, and certain profilers maybe intentionally go for this while others strive for a more natural feel.

    I do think there is something objective about feel though, at least in terms of realism, which is kind of the Kemper's main selling point - sure, tone can be very subjective, from deep sludge-rock doom to thin scratchy punk, it's all worked at some point - but with feel, there is objectively a feel that feels like a real amp feels. Some people may prefer something with less dynamic range for certain playing styles, and there's nothing wrong with that in itself - it's not like that's objectively bad - but I think you can say it objectively feels less like a real amp.

    Quote from Delinquent

    https://youtu.be/FgxaT887E3E


    You might find this interesting.

    Please don't take any offense, I appreciate your suggestion - but that's a marketing video... I've never seen anything in that guy's videos that you couldn't gather from the manual in a fraction of the time. And honestly, I'm already doing far more than that to refine the sound of Kemper profiles, and to a far more precise degree.

    Also, would like to keep the thread on topic - I'm well aware of the myriad of ways a profile's tone and feel can be refined, but really this is a technical question, more out of curiosity than anything else, about the the difference in feel between profiles before any tweaking is done. And it might not be as easily answerable as I thought - but am still hopeful some people who are experienced in creating profiles might be able to shed some light on it.

    Thats funny. When I was researching the kemper I did not notice that strange artefact in the sound. Thn you get on an you realise its in all the clips you listened too on youtube an you can not unhear it. My whole mission is to loose that wierd compressed thing. You can not diel it out, its not treble or pres, not compression etc. I have dog ears an what I hear is a roundness in the note. A ghost note thats particularly on the g,b,e Strings. Im trying everything. An this is DI profiles so it has nothing to do with external influences. An beside the refewrance amp sound is there, it just there a slight slight slight woofiness in the notes.