Could Rig Manager display an extra decimal place for parameter values?

Is there any way to view more precise values (either on the Kemper itself or within the Rig Manager editor) when adjusting profile parameters? e.g. the displayed values jump in intervals of one decimal place (e.g. 7.2 to 7.3), but by moving the knobs slowly, or holding shift while dragging with the mouse in Rig Manager, you can select positions in between this - I don't know exactly what the resolution is here, but being able to see just one more decimal place would be very useful. I know this is getting into VERY fine-tuning, but with some parameters (particularly the stack EQ, and definition) I find that there is quite an audible difference just within the range between numerical displayed values e.g. what might presumably be around 7.32 compared to what might presumably be around 7.37.

Currently, once I've decided e.g 7.3 is better than 7.2 or 7.4, I'll fish around using the Kemper's knobs between 7.2 and 7.4 till I feel I've found the sweet spot, then nudge it a bit either way to check - but this can get very fiddly due to the non-linear behavior of the knobs - e.g. easy to move them just a bit too fast and overshoot, then lose track of where you were.

Again, I realise this is in the realm of very fine tuning, but sometimes it really seems to make a difference setting values to this level of precision. If there's any way I could get the Rig Manger Editor to display just one more decimal place, that would be great! And if this is currently not possible, any chance this could be considered for a future update?

Quote from BayouTexan

The audience can't tell the difference from 7.2 to 7.3. I bet they couldn't tell the difference from 7 to 8. Maybe 7 to 11.

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Well I knew someone would be sure to tell me not to worry about setting things this precisely, so I'm glad we've got that out of the way

In general, I'd agree - don't obsess over details too much and just get on with making music etc. etc. - all good advice! But for some of my favourite profiles, which I'm using to record with a lot (and here you can hear details much more than live), I think it's worth getting them as perfect as can be. I did initially resolve to ignore the "fine tuning" possibilities I described, figuring, like you, that who could really tell the difference. However, I took a few profiles that I'd set "roughly" (i.e. just being satisfied with somewhere in the 7.2 zone vs the 7.3 or 7.4), duplicated them and "fine-tuned" the duplicates across all the parameters with very fine movements of the knobs till the smallest nudge either way couldn't improve it - then compared the two versions - the "fine tuned" ones all sounded noticeably smoother and more polished - not night and day or anything, but worth the extra ten minutes or so of fiddling around, especially considering these are profiles I intend to spend many many hours playing. And if it was possible to see just one extra decimal place, even if only in the Rig Editor, then this extra "fine-tuning" time would far less.

Put it like this - without any visually displayed values at all, it'd be really hard to set the parameters - ultimately the ear decides, but the visual reference points help you see where you are when trying to hone in on a sweet spot. Then the question is, what level of resolution is necessary? Imagine you just had whole numbers displayed on the Kemper (i.e. no decimal place at all shown when moving between e.g. 7 or 8), this clearly wouldn't be sufficient. I'm just suggesting that two decimal places, as opposed to just one, would be useful for the reason that the ear can hear the differences at this level - so it'd save a lot of time to be able to see visually where you are if you do want to set things very precisely. And maybe there could be an option in settings to select whether or not this extra decimal place was shown, so you could switch it off if too much detail was distracting. After all, the software is "aware" of the exact values selected, so it shouldn't be hard to add/alter a bit of code so it could display an extra decimal place? Definitely not more than one extra decimal place though... that really would be going from the realm of perfectionist fine tuning to being full-on OCD-inducing!!

btw I think with some parameters the small changes aren't so obvious - e.g. power sag - but for definition and EQ, and various others, you really can hear the difference before you get to the next displayed increment.

Spinal Tap reference appreciated btw

Quote from BayouTexan

With high-gain profiles and palm mutes you can tell with Power Sag. I skip over Tube Bias all the time along with some others. They get no love from me.

Yeah, I've never once found tube bias sounds better not set at zero. Clarity's another one I hate - although I do usually find a small amount helps smooth out a profile (i.e. around 0.5), so many commercial profiles come with large values of this dialed in, and it just sucks all the guts out of a sound. One not to overlook though IMO is tube shape - I've never set this above 4.5, or below about 2.6 - but within this range are some nice distortion character variations.

More importantly though, I'd be happy to amend this feature request to include the ability to go from 10 to 11

Edit: I've literally just found a profile where tube bias really adds something nice, so I spoke to soon!

Edit 2: Ever since writing this post, I've been dialling in some degree on tube bias on every profile - usually not much, but can definitely hear the difference now - really trains the ears the Kemper.

...just to suggest another alternative - maybe if the value shown at the bottom left of the Rig manger when adjusting any dial could show an extra decimal place (but please, not more than one extra ! ) - then people could ignore this if they don't want to get too precise, but it's there for reference if you want. Surely couldn't be too hard to change the code to specify show value to two decimal places here instead of one?

Currently my workaround is: set all values using mouse in rig manager - you actually get two "positions" per decimal place (without holding down the shift key) so that is plenty for most purposes, and it's easy to set these quickly - then, once all set, if the profile is working as hoped, I'll go thru each value again, just nudging the kempers knobs left or right a few "notches" to see if it can sound even better. Totally understand if anyone thinks this is more fine tuning than needed, and with some parameters I'd agree - but anything that affects the tone can really make a difference - again, have compare before and after "fine tuning" the parameters, and the difference is enough to make it worthwhile, IMO, on profiles you're going to use a lot.

Would just be a lot less fiddly though if it was possible to see that extra decimal place somewhere! If the mouse-plus-shift-key caused the values to move discretely between second decimal places (e.g. 2.32 to 2.33) that would be ideal IMO - certainly any more precision that THIS is not useful!

Quote from nightlight

I'm not sure the Kemper architecture would allow for this, but it is an interesting idea. I'm not sure that finetuning just one parameter is what you need though. You might actually get better results tweaking another parameter when you find you have come to an optimum setting for one.

Not sure what precisely you mean by Kemper architecture, but I don't see why the Rig Manager software couldn't display an extra decimal place - presumably at the moment it is coded to display only one, but it's certainly "aware" of more than this (if you hold down shift key and drag on screen knobs with mouse, or slowly turn the Kemper's physical knobs, you are selecting values inbetween the displayed ones, e.g. in between 7.1 and 7.2 etc) - I'd imagine it would just a matter of changing the code to allow an extra decimal place to be shown, and as I suggested, could just be the value that's displayed in the lower left corner on RM that has the extra decimal place - just so you have a reference somewhere in case you do find it beneficial to fine tune beyond the one decimal place increments currently shown (and not have to fish around "blindly" in order to do so!)

As for "You might actually get better resultstweaking another parameter when you find you have come to an optimum setting for one" - I think you've misunderstood something here, as I'm definitely not suggesting fine tuning just one parameter to the nth degree, while ignoring the others! On a profile I intend to use a lot, I'll try adjusting every single parameter available in amp/cab/eq sections - some may end up being left at zero, but most end up moved somewhere from default, even if only a little - all the parameters IMO are very well chosen/implemented, and work very well together improve the tone/feel of a profile. I'd also say the order in which they're set is quite important too, but that's a whole other discussion!

Quote from nightlight

By architecture, I mean you should think of a knob on the Kemper as having steps, rather than being able to set it in between positions. I don't think you are doing what you think you are when you move your Kemper knobs just a bit. There are no in between positions, i.e. you are just on 7.1 or 7.2, there is no in between those values.

As far as tweaking, wasn't insinuating that you don't do that. What I meant was what I said above, i.e. there are no in between positions, so adjust elsewhere instead.

What makes you think there are no in between positions? Apart from the fact that it's audible, I've had it confirmed elsewhere on this forum, and from customer support that there are - the whole basis for this feature request is based on this fact... The knobs do not move discretely between the displayed values, but are effectively continuous (OK, technically nothing in the digital domain is completely continuous, but to all intents and purposes...). If in doubt, take a value like definition which is very noticeable (or one of the stack eq controls - I find these also to be very sensitive, and easy to hear small changes) - turn the knob very slowly from e.g. 7.3 until it just changes to 7.2. Save profile. Duplicate. Then turn the same knob from 7.1 until it just changes to 7.2. A/B the two profiles - there will be an audible difference.

Don't mean to sound combative, but if this is something you didn't realise about the Kemper, you may find it useful! I also thought the knobs were discrete (i.e. move in "steps" as you put it) when I first got my Kemper - and in a way I wish they were!! Less temptation to fiddle around fine tuning the "perfect" sound... But then, as said above, I have found it's worth doing in many cases, so really, this level of precision is very useful. Hence why I'm suggesting it would be good to be able to visually reference another decimal place in order to more quickly choose a more precise setting if desired.