for a rectifier I guess it's just the bmtp controls will be at the frequency centers of the amp now, but for pre-gain tonestacks like bassman or mesa mark amps, are the tonestacks going to be all pre-gain now? or just centred at the same spots as the amp but still switchable pre/post like they already are?
That would be easy to implement - but unless I'm wrong, aren't a lot of amps' tone stacks located between the pre-amp and power stage? e.g. I think most Marshalls? This is where I'm not sure quite how they're going to replicate it convincingly.
Could anyone at Kemper comment on whether "liquid profiling", as it relates to the tone controls, will be:
1) a customised EQ "overlay", with EQ points and curves matching the real amp, which is placed either before or after the amp section - hence the same as the current EQ options except with customised EQ points/curves
Profile through RM. Handy but I don't make profiles often. I don't need this.
Profile Marketplace in RM. I don't need this.
Android Support. Even though I am an Android guy and this has been a long time coming and will be useful to many I don't need this.
USB Audio. Another feature long overdue that will help many but I don't need this.
Liquid Profiling (accurate tone stack with EQ and gain staging). On the surface this sounds like more of that "amp in the room" voodoo to me. The Kemper in its current form meets or exceeds all of my needs as a guitarist. The last big game changer was the Kemper Kone, Kemper Kabinet(s) and speaker imprints. A wonderful feature that... (wait for it) I had no use for.
Re. a profile marketplace in RM - the reason why I'd say this would be 2nd most useful update (after liquid profiling, if that turns out to be all it's cracked up to be that is) is that then they could implement some way where you can actually try the profiles via RM before buying - maybe they have some intermittent noise in them or something while you demo them, like a lot of demo versions of vst plugins do. For any of us who need a lot of different sounds, and have bought a lot of profiles, we all know the feeling of going thru a new profile pack and going "ah well, nothing useful here, more money wasted..." - a marketplace in RM where you could actually try the profiles to see how they sound thru your gtr/pickups (which is often very different to how they sound in the audio demos) would eliminate this frustration.
Of course, if liquid profiling really does what it it says on the tin, then this would be less of an issue anyway - i.e. if you really will be able to alter the tone of a profile in a way that matches adjusting the tone stack on the real amp.
But even with that, I don't see why anyone wouldn't want the ability to actually try the profiles thru their gear before buying - would GREATLY improve the user experience for anyone who uses 3rd party profiles.
1) Just a "custom" EQ added either before or after the amp section, so not much different than the current EQ, but presumably with EQ-points and curves set up to match particular amps
2) Something else, that truly makes it reacts like a real amp would to tone stack changes
If 1), well still useful, but nothing you couldn't do with the studio EQ or an EQ plugin in the DAW if recording.
If 2), game changer!
As C Kemper mentioned in the video interview, you can do a lot with EQ both before and after the amp - with profiles I use a lot, I use a studio EQ in a stomp slot to optimise the tonal structure of the signal going into the amp, the tone stack EQ post amp for broad strokes, and then a more detailed EQ (including hpf/lpfs) with ProQ in the DAW. However, there really is only so far you can go with any of these stages of EQ before it starts to sound unnatural. C Kemper seems to dispute this a bit in the video, but that's been my experience, and I've heard many other say it too. So currently, unless you're making your own profiles, you really do have to find a profile that already has a pretty similar tonal structure to what you're after, and to what suits your pickups. If, with liquid profiling, you really will be able to change the tonal balance in the way you can on a real amp (or a modeller), then 99% of my gripes about the Kemper will be instantly solved! Fingers crossed...
For me, Celestion are the best - enough options for each speaker/cab without being overwhelming, and they just sit right in a mix. It's nice that each speaker is available in 5 different cabs too - cab size, and open vs closed back, makes a big difference. The G12M65's are my favourite, tho have a whole bunch of others which come in useful for various different things.
I've also tried York Audio, who seem to be flavour of the month at the moment... have 3 packs from them, but I've yet to choose any of their IR's over the Celestion ones. A bit over-rated if you ask me...
Ownhammer are good, especially their newest stuff - probably my 2nd fav - but when it comes to setting sounds up for a mix, I still end up choosing the Celestions! Ownhammer's IR's do sound huge, but they're also very dark - just not enough presence IMO unless maybe you've got a very bright amp/profile, or want a very dark mix.
btw, using IR's totally transformed my experience with the Kemper - with a studio profile there are so many variables that all need to be right for it to work with your instrument and for your sound. But with DI (or merged) profiles, plus a carefully chosen IR, I find it's much easier to get the sound you're after.
Big fan of the Princeton also - does this pack contain any direct or merged profiles? If not, do you know what speakers he's profiling it through - can't find this info in his site. Or is it all just thru the stock Princeton speaker? (not necessarily a bad thing!)
Ok, I've never saw it this way, but as I tried to write: I'm not everyone Of course I like to look for other profiles and have fun with them but in the end I am now settled with my own.
No, of course. There is nothing wrong with that. That's what a forum is for: Discussion!
But I don't see a technical possibility to do this.
- Time-limited access? Pre-Record and just Re-Amp with the "trial-period".
- Audio-Preview? Most of the 3rd-party suppliers are doing something like this (and most of the time it sounds totaly different when I play those profiles...)
And last but not least: Back to the main topic:
I'm using a Ownhammer 412MarV30 IR (and the new Mesa 412 Rect Essential pack has some nice IRs too).
Profiles: my own (Marshall TSL 2000 and Silver Jubilee)
My 3rd party tips for boosted JCM800 sounds:
- PremierProfiles (paid)
- Mike Williams (Rig Exchange)
- Mago JCM 800 by Marco Cudan (Rig Exchange)
Maybe these are interesting for you
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Thanks, will check those out! btw, I used to own a TSL 2000, gigged with it for years, under-rated amp. Maybe not as classic a tone as an 800 or JMP, but I needed the 3 channels at the time, and got some great sounds out of it.
sorry to cut your comment short, but it looked chaotic otherwise.
I don’t know if a lot of people get the wrong idea what the profiler is meant to be.
In my experience it’s explicitly not a modeler or a device to get any tone you would like by turning some knobs. I think it’s a device to profile a very specific sound. Your studio setup while recording with a real amp so that you don’t need to carry it around, for example. Everything else like the rig exchange or 3rd party sellers is just something that came along over the time.
maybe I’m alone with this understanding of the profiler but I think the easiest solution to get the sound you want is to get the real amp and profile it. I went through my contacts and asked some friends if I could borrow their amps to profile them. It was fairly easy with the DI-box.
None of this is news to me... Obviously if you profiled your own amps you would have none of these problems. However, the fact is the majority of Kemper users (and I've seen polls conducted on this, it is the large majority) buy a Kemper to use 3rd party profiles in order to get the sounds of many real-world amps they would never otherwise have access to. All I'm saying in the post you partially quoted is that this process is very hit and miss, and could be made far easier (either by Kemper- or someone else? - setting up an official marketplace where you could actually demo profiles, and/or by profiling-companies creating profile packs that genuinely would work across a range of pickups). Nevermind that the Kemper started off more as something to just be able to capture the sound of your amps and e.g. take them on tour or into the studio more easily - it's now both marketed and widely thought of not just as this, but also as a platform for 3rd party profiles - and again, the overwhelming majority of users use it in this way. I can't see any harm in suggesting ways in which this user experience could be improved. If you interpreted this as a criticism of the capabilities of the Kemper itself, you have misunderstood.
Thought I'd try keeping this alive. Both some observations and some likes around direct profiles.
I have seen some profilers move to a "neutral" tone stack approach i.e. everything at noon. I'm not sure I like it. The problem...as I see it...is I can't get the high end to sound present and right through use of amp treble and presence on the profile. And, sometimes the low end is too woofy. I could use other types of EQ cuts but don't want to have to do that.
I wish more profilers would share their EQ settings, especially direct. Reampzone is great about this.
I also wish I had my own amps, or, dare I say it...a modeler. It gets expensive searching for your ideal sound by trying out commercial profiles.
I've got 3-4 profiles that really work for me in terms of my set up. I'm using a Kemper Kab and an Ownhammer IR. Mostly I'm playing and rehearsing through my Kemper Kab these days whereas I was all MBritt profiles and direct to my CLR and/or the board before. The direct profiles I like the most for my current set up are:
Tone Junkie 72 Superlead Direct profiles (Jumpered) - my favorite current setup. Minimal adjustments on the EQ and the low end, mids and high end are all where they need to be. Sounds like the Marshall sound in my head. To a lesser extent, I like his Purple Plexi direct profiles but they need less low end and more high end, at least for humbuckers. If I didn't have another profile, I'd keep my Kemper for the 72 SL.
Reampzone Friedman JJ100 - Reampzone is hit or miss for me. I like a few of the JCM800 profiles (just not enough in there) but really like the JJ100. I always liked the Mbritt Soldano pack but the Reampzone direct profiles are just too dark and don't have any presence relative to some others. This JJ though is nicely dialed in and is in the same neighborhood as the TJ 72 Superlead
Tim Owens HAWP Freidman BE 100 - these are free. Lots of detail around the EQ and setting used. He's done various shoots on request of others with certain EQ set ups. My favs is the HAWP21 BE 100 session. The bass is a bit a little lower than others, the different saturation settings and such are off, and the high end and mids are dialed in right...all for humbuckers. Pretty similar to the JJ100 but like it, more gain on tap than the Marshall Superlead if needed.
Tone Junkie AC 50 - These are cool for a vintage Marshally vibe. Nice cut (more tweaking needed for me) but a little less gain on tap than the 72 SL. I like these better than the 68 Purple Plexis.
For those familar with these profile packs and sounds, I'd be interested to see if there are any others I should check out that you feel are in the same neighborhood. Seems like Tone Junkie gave up on direct captures as I haven't seen any in the last number of profile packs he's done. Still looking for a really good vintage JCM800 sound. The Reampzone is close, just limited in terms of which captures I actually liked.
I too often wonder if I shouldn't have gone for a modeler, or switch to one! As you say, if you're at all particular about tone, it's very difficult to find profiles that work well for your specific gtr/pickups/style. I don't even like to think about how much I've spent on profiles... probably about a hundred packs from dozens of different companies, and out of all these, only a handful of individual profiles that really sound completely perfect (once tweaked...) - I've probably got about a dozen (all DI's plus IR's) which I feel couldn't really be improved on, then maybe about 2 dozen more "in reserve" that aren't bad, but just slightly off tonally despite extensive eq-ing. And these do cover a pretty broad range of tones, so mainly I have what I need - but often I just want e.g. a basic Marshall crunch tone, something I could probably dial in easily on any modeler (or the real thing), but no-one seems to have profiled it with quite the settings that suit my pickups! Gets very frustrating/expensive... I guess the axe-fx and possibly helix are on my radar as far as modelers go - but the thing is, I do have some really unique and dynamic tones with my Kemper that I suspect I'd be hard pushed to recreate - but what I do think would be easier with a modeler is just basic workhorse tones, simply due to being able to dial in the modeled amp to taste.
Re. JCM800 profiles, for some reason good ones are really hard to find! I see posts all the time on the facebook groups from people struggling to find ones that work for them. There's lots out there, but almost all are too muddy. What I've settled on for "basic" 800 type tones is this:
1) Choptones Laney GH50R - obviously not even a Marshall, but in this DI pack there's a perfect mid-gain crunch tone that comes closer to how I'd dial in an actual 800 than any actual 800 pack I've tried! Have two great boosted leads from this pack too.
2) Choptones 800C2 - there's a profile in here, boosted with a Plexitone pedal, that doesn't exactly sound quite like an 800 (due to the pedal) but does give a great Marshall crunch.
Re. Marshall type leads/higain, again, I've ended up mostly with other amps - e.g. the Engl Savage, tho a bit more brutal, is pretty Marshall-esque - and probably my all-time favourite profile is the first one in Guidorist's HiWatt pack (boosted with 808) - haven't liked any other HiWatt profiles I've tried, but this one is the closest I've come to finding my ideal gtr tone - swapped the stock cab for a Celestion IR tho of course
But it really does become like a lottery buying profiles - you pay to try them basically, and most of the time you wish you'd saved your money...
To my mind, the best way to improve the Kemper user experience would be to be able to try any profile before you buy it - e.g. if Kemper set up some sort of of official marketplace, maybe an extra tab in Rig Manager, where you could try the profiles for a limited time, or with a sporadic bleep or something (like when you demo a soft-synth for example). Thing is, I suspect if profiling companies sold this way, they'd make far less money! Think about it: almost everyone says that out of the many profiles they've bought only a few are really any good - therefore the vast majority of the money these companies make is from customers who are not satisfied with their purchase! Not many businesses can operate on this basis...
The other thing that would help, and this especially with DI profiles, is if someone made packs that really covered a lot of tonal options. Take a very popular, but really rather basic amp like the JCM 800. Most packs, if you try the first profile and it doesn't work, chances are the rest won't either, because generally people seem to dial in the tone knobs to what sounds good with their gtr/pickups, then try and tell you it'll work on yours too ("works great with single coils or humbuckers" - yeah right...!!) - however what really would work for anyone would be a pack where say just two gain ranges were chosen, e.g. a crunch and a high gain, and profile each of these with multiple tone settings. Some, scooped, some mid-boosted, some less bass, more treble etc. This way you'd be almost certain to find something that worked for your pickups. Gain can be quite effectively reduced on the Kemper - it also takes pedals rather well - so in a way, finding the right gain range is less important than the right tonal balance. Yes, you can EQ a profile to improve it - but there's only so much EQ you can apply, either pre or post amp, before it starts to sound unnatural. Yet oddly, most packs focus on a variety of gain ranges and boosts... all nice to have, but if the basic tonal balance isn't right, all useless!
Personally, when I find a profile with added fx and/or various parameters dialled in, I set everything to default (except gain and definition, which you can assume represent the amp as captured), remove fx, and see how it sounds on it's own - maybe adjust definition a bit, but if that doesn't help, move on to another one. If it's good, I'll dial in my own settings/fx. It's unlikely that whatever settings/fx have been dialled in by the profile-maker are actually the best for your pickups.
It is useful to know what settings represent what was "captured" by the profiling process - the values you'll see for gain and definition (unless they've been altered) are what was "captured" during profiling, but anything else that's not at default (i.e. 0, except tube shape, where default is 3.3.) has been dialled in after the capture - and almost certainly is best adjusted to suit your pickups. Definition should definitely be adjusted too, think of this as an overall tone setting, I'd recommend setting this (with everything else at default) as the first step in tweaking a profile. As for gain, it works well to reduce it, not so well to increase it (try a gain pedal for that!)
I can agree with everything you said. There is no perfect solution for every profile. I was being too general. I do that sometimes.
I also usually run an EQ as first stomp, Pre/Post EQ, Treble Booster after amp, Studio EQ.
My point with running the AMP EQ before gain is that it has less effect on the sound. So if those particular filter freqs are causing issues set it to PRE and flat to solve a lot of issues.
Really some form of parametric EQ in the Amp section would be best case scenario. But I am not smart enough to know what phase errors you could create with it. May be why Kemper is using fixed values. So people cant possibly screw it up.
"You setup some crazy filters on the Studio EQ and it sounds bad, that's on you brother. Turn it off. " - Kemper probably
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This is going off topic a bit, but seeing as the my main question has been resolved, thought'd I'd add a bit more on this post/pre EQ thing, as I've been doing a bit more testing over the last few days.
On profiles where I'd found Studio EQ very effective placed pre-amp/cab, I decided to see if I could get similar (or even better) results using the amp-stack EQ in "pre" mode instead. In every case tho, it didn't work anything like as well - for one, the studio EQ allows you to be much more precise, and also, the Prescense shelf in the amp-stack EQ doesn't seem to be of much use use pre-amp (tho it definitely is post amp).
What I was more surprised about tho was this: as Studio EQ was clearly working much better than amp-stack EQ before the amp, I thought I'd better also try the Studio EQ post amp instead of the amp stack EQ - tbh I've never actually tried this before - have always just used amp-stack EQ, tho it has often bothered me that I might be being a little lazy here... However I found that post amp I much preferred the amp-stack EQ to studio EQ (which I was also quite relieved to find, otherwise, I'd feel compelled to re-EQ all my profiles!!). Why this is I'm not sure - you'd think Studio EQ would be inherently better due to being able to set it more precisely - but maybe the fact fact you have 2 high shelves in the amp-stack EQ (at 2.4k and 10k) is part of it, and/or all the EQ curves are just very well designed to suit the purpose. Whatever it is, having experimented with this makes me appreciate the amp-stack EQ even more - and have concluded I will stick to the formula of: Studio EQ (pre) --> amp-stack EQ (post) --> ProQ for filters and any surgical EQ-ing.
btw, I think TMS profiles have a Mesa F50 - with multiple cabs, but also DI profiles if you want to combine with IR's, so very versatile - not tried this particular pack, but have got great tones from some of their other packs (and they're all very cheap) so this one might be worth checking out too
Choptones do DI packs, so you could grab the DI pack of that amp, and then find some 3rd party IR's of the speaker/cab you want. Actually, I far prefer this method over trying to find a studio profile where everything (amp/speaker/cab/mic/mic position) all happens to be set up exactly as you want, and in a way that suits your pickups. e.g. I've got several Choptones studio packs, and not found a single sound I liked in any of them... However, using their DI profiles (paired with mainly Celestion IR's) I have some of the very best sounds on my Kemper. Just gives you far more control over the exact sound you're after, which seems to be what you want.
Also, I really wouldn't get hung up on 50w vs 100w, or different models of the same amp - in fact often I find the sound I'm looking for from one amp from a completely different one! e.g. never quite found the mid-gain JCM 800 crunch I was after in any JCM 800 pack(and I've tried tons!) - but recently bought a pack of Laney GH50R DI profiles (from Choptones actually) and, combined with a G12M65 IR, at last the JCM800-style tone I've been searching for since I first got my Kemper!
btw I have a thread on this section of the forum about DI's plus IR's if you want to read a bit more about that approach.
The UK 800/Silver pack and CAE3+ packs didn't work for me at all - too much bass, something a bit indirect about the feel of them - for my liking anyway - and as always, different pickups, different results. However I did quite like the Henning bottle rocket pack. Tempted to try the SLO pack at some point too.
Mr Kemper himself posted the main EQ controls use these frequencies. If you are using the EQ post amp and turning up the TREBLE you will get a lot of the 2-2.5 kHz you are talking about.
For high gain you should always use the EQ as PRE AMP and then add a studio EQ as your first stomp after the amplifier to really dial in the EQ.
Since amplifier clipping adds a ton of high frequency signals, you can roll of some highs before the amplifier to get a smoother distortion. And then the STUDIO EQ is used to get you back where you want to be. Clipping a 100 Hz sine wave brings in 300Hz, 500Hz, 700Hz, etc out to infinity with gradual lowering volumes.
Every decent high gain sound I have ever looked at has this type of a frequency response. A flat line starting at 100 Hz and and ending around 5 kHz. Usually 10-15 dB drop between 100-5k.
So you should adjust the studio EQ to get something like this curve. The actual low end cuts pretty hard below 100 Hz. The slope above 5k gives you the airy and lively sound. Your IR will dictate that slope usually.
If you are EQ'ed to this slope and it stills sound really bad, I would start looking into a different IR. It is very important to keep your signal in phase. If your IR was not recorded in-phase you can get this curve but it will sound dark/weird/thin because the phase is not correct. So you get a signal at the right volume but it is out of phase with signals near it and they cancel each other out.
I always use a program called Goldwave. A stand alone app that does FFT while recording audio to see the frequency response. GW is a stand alone app. If you are using a DAW there are other options out there. It would be a good idea to have one of these type of apps running so you can see the EQ changes you are making. Personally, my ears are terrible so I need help from an app like this.
Another option is EQ'ing IRs to fit. If you purchase IRs they come as a WAVE file. These files can be loaded and edited in EQ software. Again, phase is important. Applying digital filters can cause phase errors just like real filter. Making small changes to the IR should not drastically change its overall shape.
You can also download ROOM EQ WIZARD and run sweeps on your Kemper with No amp blocks/effect/eq. This will give you a freq sweep of the IR that can be converted to an IR right in REW.
IRs are stored in WAVE file formats at 1024 or 2048 sample counts. So you will want to clip the new IRs to 2048 or something slightly larger.
To clip in time use 2048/Sample Rate to get an approx time.
2048 samples / 48000 samples per second = .04267 seconds. I would clip at say .043 or .044.
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All good info - and thanks for posting those amp-stack EQ points, I'd seen them a while ago, and couldn't find them since!
The only thing I wouldn't entirely agree with is "For high gain you should always use the EQ as PRE AMP" - I have experimented with the amp-stack as "pre" and never managed to get good results - not saying it can't be effective, but personally what I find works best is studio EQ before amp (and I find this needs to be kept fairly subtle or it takes all the life out of my pickups - and often, if the problem is that profile is a bit dull, the treble booster does a better job) - then use amp-stack EQ post amp to make broad strokes (again needs to be kept subtle, or it starts to sound unnatural - with the exception of the bass knob, which seems to be fine with quite large adjustments) - then, post amp/cab, more surgical EQ-ing to get rid of any muddy or harsh freq's and boost any sweet spots (which I do in the DAW with ProQ, but Kemper studio EQ in X slot would also work) - this is where I set up hpf/lpf too, hpf usually between 80 and 110hz, lpf usually between 6 or 8k. Many ways to skin a crocodile tho - if we all end up with a killer tone, it's all good!
If the Profiler would emphasize certain frequencies of a profile, this would have been reported by numerous makers of profiles, simply because it would easily be spotted in the A/B comparison.
Post an audio clip, so we can check if it sounds wrong.
CK
Yes, fair enough, I think you're right. As I hope I made clear, I was more leaning towards the hypothesis that all dist amps contain some potentially nasty freq's, and that it wasn't a fault with the Kemper - but just wanted to get some other opinions just in case. Also, it definitely isn't a problem in all profiles - I just noticed in some particularly harsh sounding profiles that this particular freq range seemed to be the (main) source of harshness, and then out of curiosity examined a variety of other profiles, and found this same sort of "whistling" tone WAS there in all of them, if you really isolated it that is. But mostly, it's either fine as it is and clearly just a natural part of the full freq spectrum of a dist gtr amp (e.g. sounds bad if you cut it!), or in some cases does benefit from a bit of gentle EQ-ing - but then I don't think it would come as a surprise to any audio engineer to hear that dist grs benefit from a bit of smoothing in the low-highs! So I'm happy to wrap up this thread with the conclusion that nothing is untoward here, and I shall go back to my previous policy of only working with profiles that already sound pretty sweet to begin with.
btw, with regards to the possibility of any fault in my Kemper itself, I sent some audio/DI to Kemper customer support over the weekend (for this, and another reason) and they were very helpful, compared the files, and assured me it all sounded as it should. So I shall stop overthinking this and get back to making music with it
Hi, I've noticed it too: I lower, with post-eq, the 2.500hz frequency in almost all the distortion rigs.
I leave Q at 707.
Cool, thanks, sounds like it's normal (at least for the Kemper) - and to be clear, it's only with some distorted profiles I find this frequency range unbearable. With most, it's there, but bearable/tameable. Solution - stick to my previous policy of only working with profiles that sound good to begin with!
Is the whistle still present if you turn off the amp block in the Kemper?
Can't hear much difference at all with amp block off - not sure what this tells me though, other than at least it's not some ghost signal ever-present in my Kemper or pickups. The question remains whether this frequency range is more harsh with the Kemper than if you were to record a real amp. If it's normal tho (i.e. not a particular fault in my Kemper) then it's sort of a moot point anyway I suppose - is what it is. Usually doesn't take much EQ to tame it - after all this only came to my attention because of a profile where it was particularly bad. Most profiles it's still there. but bearable/tameable. At this point I guess it's just a matter of technical curiosity as to whether the Kemper accentuates this harshness due to it's profiling tech or digital nature.
Is the whistle still present if you turn off the amp block in the Kemper?
Ah, good point! That would help rule out anything to do with my pickups. Will try this next. Although as this harsh freq is only really there on dist tones (and I suspect just a natural artifact of a distorted amps overtones) I'm not sure if it's going to answer the question of whether this is a Kemper thing or an amp thing.
Of course I like to look for other profiles and have fun with them but in the end I am now settled with my own.
