Got a Kemper again after 10 years - what should I know? And PA + guitar cab question.

    Hi all,

    So after a very long while (I bought my original Kemper in 2012 and sold it in the same year) I've acquired an unpowered Kemper Toaster Head again.

    I know a lot has happened since then, but what are the most important/valuable things that I should be aware of, set up, try, etc?

    I've downloaded RM, updated to the newest beta and had a quick go with profiles (liquid and traditional) and I really liked the tone and feel with headphones. Then I've experimented with plugging into my PA + traditional guitar cab rig (using a Fryette LXII mainly but also having access to two TC BAM200s if I want SS) and I thought it sounded really bad for some reason. I've stereo linked the two mono outputs on the back and disabled cab sim on them so I'm guessing there's no secret setting that would immediately alleviate it. Everything sounds muddy to the point where every profile pretty much sounds the same, a muddy cloud of lows and low-mids with not too much of the pretty harmonic content I'm used to with guitar amps. The low end also seems to be very off which was not the case with headphones - I've actually thought the low end through headphones was just perfect and totally amp and cab-like. Interestingly, some DI profiles done without a cab sound much better but I still feel like tremendous amount of harmonic (and high end) detail is missing. Do you have any ideas? I'd really like to make the Kemper work with this more traditional setup because I absolutely love the FRFR tones and would be really happy if I could translate it to the "amp in the room" realm.

    For comparison, I'm running my Axe-Fx III into the same rig and it sounds just perfect although it's interesting to mention that for this quick first run I've actually preferred the feel and sound of the Kemper through headphones which I actually hate the Axe with.

    Thanks in advance - it's good to be back and I'm trying to make the most of it

    Quote from pipo64

    ciao perche' quando entri nel Pa disattivi la simulazione casse???non lo fare e prova

    Hi, I translated your post since I don't speak Italian.

    If I don't then the cab sim sound gets stacked with the real cab sound and it simply doesn't sound good.

    Go to downloads on kemper's home page, select manuals and download the addendum. The addendum announces all the new features in order from the most recent to the oldest. This same info is found in the manual, but presented this way you can see what is new in order.

    Downloads | Kemper Amps


    It probably will make the most sense if you scroll down and read the oldest releases first, and the newer releases are often updates of older updates.

    What should you know? You should have known to keep it.


    I think you are finding DI without cab better is because you are wanting stronger mids for tone. So don't cut any mids and use the Definition parameter to lose low end muddiness. Of course, Cab or IR selection is going to make a huge impact on tone. Reamping is probably the fastest way to tweak to get the tone you want.

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

    Thanks 1

    Thank you all for chiming in.

    Quote from BayouTexan

    What should you know? You should have known to keep it.


    I think you are finding DI without cab better is because you are wanting stronger mids for tone. So don't cut any mids and use the Definition parameter to lose low end muddiness. Of course, Cab or IR selection is going to make a huge impact on tone. Reamping is probably the fastest way to tweak to get the tone you want.

    I'm not using any cabs or IRs because I'm running into a power amp with a real guitar cab - this is why I don't understand my struggle.

    So, after tweaking a lot my main issue still hasn't changed. This only applies to tube/SS PA + real guitar cab use.

    Somehow I feel like a tremendous amount of clarity is just missing from most of the profiles I've tried. The DI ones are much better in this regard (SinMix DIs for example) but I still feel like my Axe-Fx III is doing an uncomparably better job. I'm not an Axe fanboy, I'm trying to make the Kemper work for me in a similar use case. But for some reason everything that comes out of it is just muddy, lifeless and missing clarity. As soon as I go to headphones/studio monitors and listen with cab sim or IRs everything sounds much better and I actually prefer the Kemper's feel to the Axe's in many cases.

    I'm trying to figure out the reason - could this be due to separating amps and cabs on profiles taken with a cab is something that isn't perfect and the cab's imprint is still there in this case? Should I just accept that this use case is something the Kemper is not ideal for?

    Quote from thekrz

    Quindi, dopo aver apportato molte modifiche, il mio problema principale non è ancora cambiato. Questo vale solo per l'uso di tubi/SS PA + cabina per chitarra reale .

    In qualche modo ho la sensazione che manchi un'enorme quantità di chiarezza nella maggior parte dei profili che ho provato. Le DI sono molto migliori in questo senso (le DI SinMix per esempio) ma ho comunque la sensazione che il mio Axe-Fx III stia facendo un lavoro incomparabilmente migliore. Non sono un fan di Axe, sto cercando di far funzionare il Kemper per me in un caso d'uso simile. Ma per qualche motivo tutto ciò che ne esce è solo confuso, senza vita e privo di chiarezza. Non appena metto le cuffie/monitor da studio e ascolto con il simulatore di cabina o gli IR, tutto suona molto meglio e in molti casi preferisco effettivamente la sensazione del Kemper rispetto a quella dell'Axe.

    Sto cercando di capirne il motivo: potrebbe essere dovuto al fatto che separare amplificatori e cabinet sui profili presi con un cabinet è qualcosa che non è perfetto e l'impronta del cabinet è ancora lì in questo caso? Dovrei semplicemente accettare che questo caso d'uso sia qualcosa per cui Kemper non è l'ideale?

    Code
    Lo so, le regole dicono di disattivare le sim degli altoparlanti, lo so, ma io le uso lo stesso e mi trovo bene, ovviamente uso un finale e un altoparlante veri, eppure lascio attivi i Kemper Cab

    Edited once, last by pipo64 ().

    Thanks 1

    I know I’m in a minority here, but I did assign some different IRs in rig manager and found they helped greatly with FRFR tone. I use an dxr10, which is quite old school but have got it sounding really nice. I actually got some very complimentary comments at my jazz gig yesterday from and Axe owner. It took me quite a while to get the tone I wanted so it’s definitely worth persevering

    A brace of Suhrs, a Charvel, a toaster, an Apollo twin, a Mac, and a DXR10

    Thanks 1
    Quote from thekrz

    So, after tweaking a lot my main issue still hasn't changed. This only applies to tube/SS PA + real guitar cab use.

    Somehow I feel like a tremendous amount of clarity is just missing from most of the profiles I've tried. The DI ones are much better in this regard (SinMix DIs for example) but I still feel like my Axe-Fx III is doing an uncomparably better job. I'm not an Axe fanboy, I'm trying to make the Kemper work for me in a similar use case. But for some reason everything that comes out of it is just muddy, lifeless and missing clarity. As soon as I go to headphones/studio monitors and listen with cab sim or IRs everything sounds much better and I actually prefer the Kemper's feel to the Axe's in many cases.

    I'm trying to figure out the reason - could this be due to separating amps and cabs on profiles taken with a cab is something that isn't perfect and the cab's imprint is still there in this case? Should I just accept that this use case is something the Kemper is not ideal for?

    I think the issue is pretty simple, although you may not like the answer....


    A traditional guitar cab MASSIVELY colours the sound, way more than I ever expected and sometimes not in a positive way.


    I found the same issue when I first started using my Kemper with my guitar cab ( around the same time you started - about 2013) ...I thought it sounded muffled and wholly. I had a classic mix of speakers (Celestion V30's and G12H's). I only really realized when I went direct into the PA and it sounded awful - my profiles were poor but the cab masked them so much that I couldn't tell the difference. It was annoying as I'd had the cab for years and always assumed it was good...but I had hard evidence it wasn;t...


    Why is your Axe better? I suspect you have eq'ed it to get the best sound out of the cab, so your Axe is also fighting the cab - but this is not the source of the issue, its the cab IMO. Direct profiles eliminate the cab removal but I suspect its still not "the" sound you are after.


    The evidence is in the headphone sound....I suspect your FOH sound is also pretty good.


    I then went FRFR and it was way better BUT a bit clinical. Wind on until 2-3 years ago I went down the Kabinet route and then nailed it for me.


    During this time, however, I also realized that I was chasing a monitor sound, when that is not the most important - the important sound is FOH. So not having a perfect on stage monitor became less and less important. Even though I love my Kabinet and take it to every gig, I rarely use it as the venues give me fold back which is way more efficient for the rest of the band etc....


    Hope that helps..

    Quote from V8guitar

    I think the issue is pretty simple, although you may not like the answer....

    ...

    Hope that helps..

    Thank you, that was really thoughtful and you've touched on lots of points.

    The thing is, I'm only playing at home in my small home studio. The reason I have my guitar cabs and power amps is that sometimes I really enjoy that amp in the room sound, feel and dynamics.

    I don't have the Axe EQd at all - I just plug it in and pretty much everything sounds stellar after turning off cab simulation. The same doesn't work with the Kemper - apart from the DI profiles I'm still getting that muffled and wholly sound you're mentioning and maybe even more importantly, I feel like my pick attack is super compressed with every profile.

    I have an EV PXM-12MP on the way, though, and I'll be really interested to hear what the Kemper will do with decent FRFR.

    Quote from thekrz

    Thank you, that was really thoughtful and you've touched on lots of points.

    The thing is, I'm only playing at home in my small home studio. The reason I have my guitar cabs and power amps is that sometimes I really enjoy that amp in the room sound, feel and dynamics.

    I don't have the Axe EQd at all - I just plug it in and pretty much everything sounds stellar after turning off cab simulation. The same doesn't work with the Kemper - apart from the DI profiles I'm still getting that muffled and wholly sound you're mentioning and maybe even more importantly, I feel like my pick attack is super compressed with every profile.

    I have an EV PXM-12MP on the way, though, and I'll be really interested to hear what the Kemper will do with decent FRFR.

    On the premise that the KPA and Axe are comparable in terms of being able to produce good sounds, DI profile should be comparable the Axe with cab simulation off - I don't think there is any compatibility or "magic" difference. So for me, it must be that its eq must suit the cab better. Have you compared the the profile to the sound from the Axe? I'm sure they will be different...


    My point is, tuning the KPA to your cab will be counter productive because that's what I did. Boosted treble and presence etc...then the direct sound was awful.


    I understand the desire for amp in the room though, its what we grew up with and the only way we could get our sound heard ( mic in front of a cab).


    These digital solutions make us think differently


    It will be interesting how you find the EV....I suspect you will get the clarity you have bene missing but you may feel its a touch clinical..almost too accurate

    I have had similar experiences with cabinets. I stopped using guitar cabs completely with the Kemper. The sound is bad for the reasons stated above by V8. I should say that I don't believe the amp in the room thing so consider that as you will. I only run the Kemper through full range speakers - many different PA and studio monitors. Speakers have a huge effect. I am able to get great sounds out of great speakers. The same profiles on lesser speakers don't sound nearly as good. For me, the quality of the Kemper sound is ALL ABOUT THE SPEAKER.


    I have EV monitors, many models of JBLs, Turbosound, Community, KRK, Adam, Alesis, Klipsch. Some sound great and other don't. The range of quality is very wide. I now only focus on tweaking profiles with what I know are good speakers for the Kemper. Otherwise, I view it as wasted time and I have found that I can tweak endlessly with a 'bad' speaker and never achieve an acceptable sound.

    Thanks again guys

    To be fair, I'm looking for the studio tones just as much, I just prefer to move air once in a while


    I'm really looking forward to the EV. I didn't get it because I'm hoping it would replace my traditional PA + cabs and obviously I'm not expecting it to sound like a guitar cab in any way but maybe it will give me a use case that I can be really happy with.

    Quote from lbieber

    ...


    I have EV monitors, many models of JBLs, Turbosound, Community, KRK, Adam, Alesis, Klipsch. Some sound great and other don't. The range of quality is very wide. I now only focus on tweaking profiles with what I know are good speakers for the Kemper. Otherwise, I view it as wasted time and I have found that I can tweak endlessly with a 'bad' speaker and never achieve an acceptable sound.

    So, which speakers have worked out for you? Would you consider the EV PXM-12MP a good pick? I don't have the money for a Meyer or something similar top of the line stuff but I've really only read good things about the EV in the Fractal Forums at the price point - especially being coaxial.

    Quote from thekrz

    Thanks again guys

    To be fair, I'm looking for the studio tones just as much, I just prefer to move air once in a while


    I'm really looking forward to the EV. I didn't get it because I'm hoping it would replace my traditional PA + cabs and obviously I'm not expecting it to sound like a guitar cab in any way but maybe it will give me a use case that I can be really happy with.

    So, which speakers have worked out for you? Would you consider the EV PXM-12MP a good pick? I don't have the money for a Meyer or something similar top of the line stuff but I've really only read good things about the EV in the Fractal Forums at the price point - especially being coaxial.

    Ive never used one myself, but the EV's seem to be generally liked by many on here, so hopefully you will enjoy them. My comments were more generic about FRFR speakers, so I really hope you like the EV's

    Sorry, but I have no experience with the EV PXM-12MP.


    I am simply using what I have on hand and have accumulated over the years. I have not purchased anything special for use with the Kemper, but I have been loaned several FRFR units as well as a Kab. Some of the speakers that I already own sound better or as good and none merited spending more dollars.

    1. JBL SRX series is absolutely the best for all uses - live and in my studio/home
    2. EV floor monitors that I obtained in the 80s. Not sure of the model. I would have to check
    3. Turbosound ip2000 line array - not quite as good as the previous 2 but I use it on some live gigs. Relatively transparent and tweeter can be a bit harsh
    4. Adam A7 for studio/home use. Not high powered, but transparent. Tweeter can also be a bit harsh
    5. The list of boxy sounding speakers is long but includes JBL MRX and PRX and many of the others that I mentioned above. I would have to spend more time to provide details on those

    A main consideration for me is that I moved away from guitar cabs with the Kemper because I want a good FOH and monitor sound. This forces the use of cabs with tweeters. Tweeters can make profiles(and mic'd guitar amps) sound unpleasant. Before Kemper, I always rolled off the high end off the mic'd guitar amp signal at the board to get it out of the tweeters. Most guitarists don't like and are not used to the guitar in the tweeter sound. I am one of them. I think this is a big contributor to the amp-in-the-room phenomenon that is talked about here a lot. Profiles have to be tweaked properly for cabs with tweeters or the result is harsh, tinny, digital, etc... The Kemper is especially prone to producing harsh tweeter content IMO. I use definition, presence, hi cut, treble, studio EQ to tame it. I find that some profiles can't be tamed and I quickly move on from those. So, I EQ profiles around the harshness that can be part of the guitar plus tweeter sound. On a side note, I suspect that I don't like some of my speakers because the crossover frequency in the unit is not to my liking.


    That's some of my experience and opinion. I hope it helps.

    Quote from lbieber

    Turbosound ip2000 line array - not quite as good as the previous 2 but I use it on some live gigs. Relatively transparent and tweeter can be a bit harsh


    wow, times have moved on 🤣


    I didn’t realise Turbosound were still in business. When I was younger and gigging regularly we would subcontract PA hire with TMS3 based rigs. On gig had 40kw of TMS3.


    Those brutes handled 1500w but weighed 195kg each (plus amps)


    Roll forward to now and an iP2000 puts out 1000w and weighs30kg (including amps)

    Again, thank you all I'm more and more hopeful that FRFR will be a good solution with the Kemper.

    Quote from lbieber

    ...

    That's some of my experience and opinion. I hope it helps.

    Thank you for being so detailed and informative. Wish I had the funds for JBL SRX series. I'd be very interested to learn the model of the EV monitors if you can check that.